Climate Action and Advocacy

You are gonna love our next guest. Just had an amazing conversation with Michelle Lee, who is a globally recognized climate thought leader, keynote speaker, and founder of Kleban Carbon and Women in Climate. After launching her career in Silicon Valley with tech giants like Salesforce, she turned her focus to accelerating climate action through carbon literacy and inclusive community building.

Michelle has spoken at TEDx, South by Southwest, COP, Bloomberg, and more and contributes content to the United Nations. Her initiatives use engaging, accessible formats to make sustainability mainstream. Through women and climate, Michelle fosters a joyful, safe space, empowering women to take climate action and lead the change our planet needs.

Welcome, everyone, to the Power Up Your Life podcast. I'm Kelly Resendez.

And I'm Mandy McAllister.

And we are so excited to have Michelle Lee, just a dear friend of mine, on today. And so just excited to really dig in and hear your story, Michelle. So first of all, welcome. And if you wouldn't mind just sharing a little bit about who you are and your journey.

Yeah. Absolutely. And thank you so much, Kelly and Mandy, for having me on your podcast. I am excited to dig in. To the audience, my name is Michelle Lee. I am the founder of Clever Carbon and also the founder of Women and Climate, cofounder, actually.

And I guess I wanna take a couple steps back because, actually, it wasn't a straight kind of dotted line career into climate. There were a lot of ups and downs and tangents. I'm from Toronto, Canada, and I studied science. And I moved into doing some market research in the medical device field, but really felt trapped and wanted to do something fun. And ended up going to San Francisco for business school, which is ultimately what changed my life.

I ended up working for some of the world's top tech companies at the time, so Sales Force and DocuSign. And it it's kind of kind of funny how now when you think about, oh, what what am I gonna study in college? And what do I wanna do when I grow up? Like, what you study is actually so different from what you end up doing. Like, I was literally doing biology and chemistry and then selling software to some of the biggest companies in the world. So, you know, for those women, individuals out there, you know, if you aspire to do something different, it is definitely possible.

And I think along the way, working for some of these big tech companies, I really loved the aspect of doing business for good. Whether it's Salesforce, whether it's DocuSign. Employees were really encouraged to use their personal time, to use their personal skills, to do social impact projects, to work, with volunteer organizations. And as a result, I was really exposed to things like, the environment and nature.

At DocuSign, for example, the company really prides themselves in reducing the number of trees by removing paper. And as a result, we also had a lot of initiatives around tree planting. But at the company, we also had, beach cleanup. So that's where my sort of love for business and impact came in. And I started Clever Carbon while I was still working at DocuSign. I really wanted to find a hip and fun way to inspire people to take action, and that's kind of where it all started.

Oh my goodness. That's amazing. So tell us a little bit more about what that company does.

Yeah. So at Clever Carbon, we teach people about carbon footprint in a really hip and fun way. And what we do is we aspire to share knowledge, to help people make informed decisions rather than saying this is good. This is bad. Don't do this. Don't do that. There's too much duality in that. We wanna empower people by giving them knowledge and having them make their own decisions.

And, you know, as an example, the average carbon footprint of an individual in Canada, which is where I'm I am right now, I'm based in Toronto, is around 14 tons annually, 14 tons of carbon dioxide. In The US, it's around 17. In The UK, it's around 7.7. And in countries like Vietnam, it's around 2.2, so very low. So depending on where you live, your carbon footprint can be really different.

And a vegetarian meal, a serving of chicken, and a serving of beef all also have very different carbon footprints. So 600 grams for a vegetarian meal, 1,300 for a serving of chicken, and 7,700 for a serving of beef. Right? And I think most people don't know these numbers, don't understand the scale and the difference. And by empowering individuals with this knowledge, they can make more informed decisions.

And it's not about being perfect. It's not about being like, oh, you know, beef is 7,700. I'm gonna cut it out of my diet forever, and I'm not gonna be friends with people who eat beef. Like, no. It's it's that's not the goal. But just looking at our own, behaviors and activities, things that we can control to make a small but mighty impact because when collectively, when we do it, it actually becomes a big impact. You know, what are the things that I can do to do better?

And, you know, with Clever Carbon, we aspire to do that. We package it up in very hip, fun branding. I literally told my designer, if Urban Outfitters were to teach people about carbon footprint, that's what I want us to look like. So if you go on our website and see some, you know, Urban Outfitters vibes, that's by design because I think a lot of the content in the past and sustainability and climate has been very just kind of like drab. And this is four years ago when I started Clever Carbon, so it was definitely very drabbed now. Nowadays, there are lots of really fun, colorful brands, not unlike Clever Carbon, which I think is really the most impactful way to reach a larger audience and Mhmm. To scale that knowledge because sometimes climate can feel very intimidating. It's something I can't control. So I'm just gonna do what I keep doing until I can't do it anymore. But, actually, there are small steps, and it can be fun to learn.

And myself, for example, I love composting, and I haven't always loved composting. But now it's just that one small thing that I can do in my daily actions to reduce the amount of greenhouse gases because when our food goes to landfill, it rots and produces methane, which is a greenhouse gas that is 25 times more potent.

So that's a little bit about carbon. I will add that since the inception, it went from kind of side project to working with some of the biggest brands in the world. One of our partners that we're really proud of is the National Basketball Association, the NBA. They use our materials. So we have a carbon footprint quiz. It's about six questions. It's very fast. It's very fun. There's emoji confetti. So when you do an answer, there's, like, all this confetti. So it's just so so fun and delightful to do the quiz. And the MBA, MBA green has their own version of the quiz with their colors and their logos.

And I also do carbon footprint workshops because I see the power of employee engagement and people culture. I was a participant in a lot of wellness trainings when I was working at Salesforce and DocuSign, and I personally loved it. So I decided to create a workshop to satisfy that need in employee wellness. I have some thoughts around the the important roles that employers play around disseminating information because after university or college, where do we learn things from? Where do we learn about AI? DEI? Mental health, you know, DEI, COVID practices. It's really our employers. So that's what we do at Clever Carbon.

That's beautiful. I think, you know, anything that's a public good, it's so hard to figure out what portion you own. And it and I think, you know, knowledge is totally power. I think I say to my kids a lot is when you know better, you do better. So I think that that that's a brilliant, way of going about things.

So I you know, it sounds like you've made a lot of really interesting pivots throughout your career. Now you're really focused on doing better for the world as a whole, but there has to have been a time that you felt stuck, that you ran up against a wall and things just didn't feel right. I I'm curious when you feel stuck, what are some steps that you take to get yourself unstuck?

I mean, as an entrepreneur, there are so many times you feel stuck. But even working in tech, you know, there are challenges there as well. And I think for me, I'm just really one of those people that like to talk it out. I like to hear different opinions. I like advice. And going to different sources, I get different perspectives.

And one, I think just talking about it actually is very therapeutic and and kind of, like, calms your nerves and calms your nervous system in general. And then gaining, collective wisdom from multiple people, there are bits and pieces that you can take from them and move forward.

And and I think, you know, as we mature and and we get more experience, a lot of it is we're able to handle it ourselves as well. But I still really like to go to a girlfriend, a colleague, and kinda share. And from there, start building again.

Oh, that's awesome. So, Michelle, obviously, this started with an idea. Right? You found a problem that was big in the world, and you wanted to solve it.

For anyone listening that maybe is in that same space, like, give us a few steps that you took because you obviously have a very thriving company with huge, you know, with huge clients now. Like, what what was that process that you went through to scale the business and bring that idea to a technology and then out to market?

I love that question. And I think the first thing is really to find something that you love and you're passionate about and that you don't need to get paid to do because that was what Clever Carbon was. I was still working in tech at the time, but it was COVID. I had time, and I also saw firsthand the amount of single use waste that was generated during COVID. You know, people would go hang out at the parks on the weekends. And on Mondays, it was just littered with beer bottles, beer cans, coffee cups, plastic containers, and I just couldn't take it anymore. I couldn't stand it. I needed to try something that I feel could really move the dial. So I think that is one of the pieces. Find something that you're really passionate about.

And then when I decided to actually make Clever Carbon a business, it wasn't because I was like, oh, I'm gonna quit my tech job and work on climate. I'm gonna, you know, be a hero. It wasn't anything like that. It was more I was moving on in my current role. I was ready for a new challenge. I was actually looking for jobs that were, more tech focused around maybe carbon accounting, etcetera. Like, I could still do this software sales, but in a field that felt more meaningful to me. But then I just started working on Clever Carbon all the time, and I wasn't applying for jobs, and I wasn't getting the job because I wasn't applying. So then I just sat down and I was like, you know, it had almost been ten years since I done business school. I paid off my student debt. Why don't I take a bit of a sabbatical and just give it a try? Let's see if we can build some revenue streams out of this work.

And I didn't have any workshops at the time. But that is the world that I that I know. I had joined this tech company, and everything was virtual. And they had a winter mindset, speaker come talk about resilience. And it was so applicable because it was during COVID, and everyone was by themselves and really isolated. And just having this company, you know, all the employees on and experiencing that, like, I know that there's budgets for things like that, and I know that it is very valuable to the employees. So that's where I decided that I would develop a workshop. And my first practice workshop was actually with my former DocuSign colleagues. So they really helped me kinda give me feedback. I had these concepts that I wanted to test when it came to interaction because everything was virtual at the time. Mhmm. So that is kind of where it all started.

And I think it's kind of funny now because, you know, I I do a lot of workshops, but then also this career path led me down to keynote speaking, which is something I know probably both of you ladies are very familiar with as well. And that was something that was not a part of the business plan, a part of my entrepreneurial journey, but it kind of found me and I learned the business. Like, I hired, a coach who was who is an expert when it comes to keynote speaking. I think we all think we know what keynote speaking is, but actually, it is such an intricate business in itself and you have to generate leads and you have to join bureaus and all the things. So I guess, like, there's multiple steps there from, you know, finding a revenue stream for Clever Carbon and then some of the other offshoots of the business that can come from that experience.

I have I love this. I I love that it was an idea, and you just were so obsessed with it. It just kept going. But you don't start with an idea, and then you end up with a partner like the NBA. You scale to this incredible place. Right?

And and in terms of bumps along the road, I'm sure you got advice. And I'm sure you got advice that's really conventional and, is probably something that you don't believe in. Talk to me about some business advice while scaling your business that turned out to be, untrue or something that was the the biggest fallacy?

I think that people just in general have a notion that, you know, entrepreneurship is something to aspire towards. You know, you you're successful if you're an entrepreneur. It's something, only brave and courageous people do. And I will tell you, if I could be sitting in my seat, you know, having a steady tech job and doing clever carbon on the side, that might not be a bad thing because being an entrepreneur is super, super scary.

You go from a solid paycheck, and then you move into this territory of, like, well, how much is really enough is really enough? Like, what what should my baseline savings be in my bank account before I start looking for a job again? And then you just start losing track of reality as well. Like, you're you're enjoying your freedom. You're like, well, let's sell this off. Let's, let's not do this anymore. And then you're like, who am I now? Like, what, like, what, what are those trade offs in life?

And I think the fallacy I wanna highlight is there is nothing wrong with having a nine to five job. It is a means to an end. We all need to put food on our table, a roof over our heads and have our basic needs met. And if we have extra time, we can always pursue our passions, which is how Clever Carbon started anyways.

Not to scare anyone off on being an entrepreneur, but it's not always that glorious. There are definitely highs and lows. I'm still riding the wave out. I don't know where I'm gonna end up, but, yeah, nine to five jobs are great.

No. That's awesome. And having an and can be really powerful where you do one thing and do it. I know both Mandy and myself have done that. So, you know, in terms of, like, how do you really ensure that you keep the right mindset needed to be an entrepreneur and can ride the waves of uncertainty, you must have some disciplines or other things that keep you in that state. What would those be?

For me, it's actually a little not I don't wanna say boring, but it it's hard work. Hard work will lead to results. When I am doing a full month, you know, I've got in my calendar that I'm gonna prospect, that I'm gonna lead gen, I'm gonna follow-up. I see the results. I get the meetings. I get the opportunities, and they don't always materialize and, you know, close in two months, but you're sowing those relationships. And for me, that's always been the key to my success is the hard work, whether I was studying in university and trying to ace an exam. Like, I'm not the type that it'll just walk in and do amazing on an exam. But when I spend the time and I work hard, I will get the results.

And it's the persistence, but also giving yourself space to, just enjoy life a little bit. Right? Myself right now, I am taking one day of the week off to care for my father. Right? I'm an entrepreneur. I own my own schedule, and I'm able to spend time with my family and and take care of my dad and give my mom the day off. So she's not always the sole caretaker and caregiver. And I think some of these things allow you to step away from work for a little bit, but also fulfill other parts of your lives. And I think that's always important to keep in mind is to to make space.

I I you totally need those boundaries. Because if you're not choosing what happens with your time, someone else will choose what's happening with your time. And I I love this idea too of that hard work gets results. I'm a farm kid, and I I always say that you've gotta divorce the outcome and marry the process. Because if you just show up and do the thing, then you will get to whatever result that you want.

So, you know, because of the let's talk a little more clever carbon. Right? So on average, there has to be some pattern. Right? Like, obviously, knowing that beef has a larger footprint than a mushroom is thing number one, have that knowledge. But for the layperson who's listening, what is maybe the the one or two most impactful thing they can do besides just education, to limit their their carbon footprint?

There are a few things in our personal lives that really contribute heavily to our carbon footprint, and commuting is one of those things. So how we commute, do we drive? Do we carpool? Do we take the bus? Do we walk, bike, etcetera? And if we bike, do we, you know, do micro mobility, or do we own our own bike, e bikes, etcetera?

Our food and consumption is actually huge. And maybe I'll give you some stats to paint that picture. So, steel, everyone, like, knows that steel is a highly industrial process. Right? Very high carbon footprint. When it comes to global emissions, steel makes up about 10% of global emissions. Cement manufacturing is also up there. Most people don't know that manufacturing cement actually is very energy, intense and releases a lot of greenhouse gases and is up there around 10% as well. And globally, food and agriculture combined are 25% of global emissions. Right? So we always think of, like, oh, these industrial, like, industries, they're so high. Commercial flying is somewhere between one and a half percent to 2%. The maritime industry is somewhere around there as well.

So just to give you a sense of how big food really is in our lives and how important it is because it's actually something that we have control over. When it comes to things like commuting or energy at our home, we can't really control a lot of the energy sources or if there's a bus stop outside or if there's snowing or raining, etcetera. But food is something that we do three times a day. We eat three meals at least, and we have a lot of control over. So food is a big one.

Flying is definitely impactful. That's why, for example, in countries like Canada and The US, you know, developed nations like Australia and many others actually have a lot, a higher carbon footprint because people have disposable income. So they have a higher ability to travel, to fly, and various things. So flying definitely has a high carbon footprint.

And then energy at your home. So whether, you are, you know, in the summer, is your home at, you know, 70 degree 70 degrees Fahrenheit, or is it at 75 or 76? Right? Those types of things make a difference. Same thing in the winter. Right? Is your home at 70, or is it at 68? So what are some of the smaller changes that we can make from that perspective? And even things like, when we're drying our clothes. Right? Are we using the, electric dryer, or are we air drying? Because, obviously, tumble drying requires a lot of energy. So from that perspective, you know, small changes can make a difference.

And then there's also the source of energy. A lot of people it's probably more difficult for them to make changes there because it's gonna require you to do a lot of calling and and various things. And you may live in a city where you're lucky that there is an abundance of clean energy, and they're able to reach out to you directly. But for most people, it's still a little bit difficult to tell, like, you know, you've got a local utility and kind of what you see is what you get. You don't really get a choice.

So just to sum it up again, it's really the commuting, your food, how much you fly, energy at your home, and obviously things like consumption, what we're buying, how we're buying, how how frequent we're buying. Those all make a difference as well. I will say, there's a lot of different trends that are coming up to make consumption more responsible. One I'd like to highlight is, for example, shopping vintage or buying reused things or buying at marketplaces like, you know, Kijiji or Facebook marketplace where you can actually buy used items.

And then just thinking about the amount of waste that we're generating when we are buying things, whether it's groceries. There are shops coming up that are zero waste. So, for example, you can go buy rice and bring your own container, And you buy you pay by the pound. And there are shops where you can buy rice, flour, tapioca flour, panko, like all of it you can buy in bulk and you can even go and bring a bottle, refill it with olive oil, with, like, maple syrup, avocado oil, like, all those different things to reduce the amount of packaging.

And I'm actually using a skincare line now that is paper based. So instead of a plastic container, it is paper. So the so it's more solid. It's kinda more like a bar, but they've got serums. They've got face creams, night creams, all of those different things. So as you go on this journey, you're constantly discovering and learning, which is partly what makes it really fun.

That's awesome. Well and I think just the commitment to being world positive that there are generations that are gonna come after us that are gonna benefit from all these small micro changes that we can make in our lives.

So I wish we had more time just to to dig into more, but I know for me, you know, probably one of the the greatest shares that you had was just that, you know, you did take an idea that you had. You worked on it simultaneously while you were doing other things, and then were able to really just get out there and start testing it and and changing it. And now you've got an amazing company, and that definitely is something that a lot of our listeners are gonna benefit from.

What about you, Mandy?

There were two things that I wrote down and circled, Michelle. One, hard work leads to results. I believe it. You know? That if you ever want something, if you have millionaires, billionaires, usually shows up, looking like hard work and having to roll up your sleeves.

And I also love that you bet on yourself. At some point, this was something you wanted to do. You recognized that, okay. I have enough money. I've paid off this student debt. Now is the time for the sabbatical to bet on myself. I absolutely loved that you did that.

One thing that we love to do at GoBundance Women, is is support the other women in our lives. Lives. So we want to know from you, what is an introduction or a resource or or something that would help you take whatever you're doing to the next level? What would that thing be that we might help all our listeners?

I guess directly for me is if you know any companies that maybe are early on in their sustainability journey and wanna do more, I think there are a lot of free and fun ways to engage employees on this matter, and it can be a really great way just for, employee engagement, attainment, reducing attrition.

So I have an abundance of resources on some free things that you can do at your workplace and I would love to share it with other companies.

Yeah. And what's that website, Michelle?

So our website is clevercarbon.io And through our website, you can find Clever Actions, which is actually a free employee engagement program with over 90 different actions that a company can take and engage their employees on. And you can find that on our main website.

Awesome. Well, thank you again for joining us today on the Power Up Your Life podcast, and thank you for all that you do to make the world a better place. It's just amazing. So make sure you check out Michelle's platform.

And then if you wanna power up your business, head over to Power Up Your Life Now and find all of our amazing resources that are gonna help your business grow from marketing to podcasting, and and you can find out more information on GoBundance Women as well. So thank you again, Michelle, and we'll see you next time. Make sure you share this episode.

Bye. Thanks, Mandy. Thank you.